In this conversation, Shannon Pawley, a dual state licensed attorney with over 26 years of experience, shares her journey and passion for law, particularly in the areas of elder law, estate planning, and healthcare directives. She emphasizes the importance of proactive planning for families, especially those dealing with cognitive decline. The discussion covers essential documents like powers of attorney, healthcare proxies, and advanced directives, as well as the emotional and legal complexities involved in caregiving and decision-making for loved ones. Shannon also addresses the implications of Medicaid and asset protection, providing valuable insights for families navigating these challenges.
00:00 Introduction to Shannon Pawley and Her Passion for Law
03:15 The Importance of Proactive Planning
13:07 Understanding Powers of Attorney
24:10 Navigating Family Dynamics in Healthcare Decisions
27:08 Addressing Advanced Directives and Cognitive Decline
30:01 Medicaid and Asset Protection Strategies
Shannon Pawley (00:16)
My name is Shannon Pauley. I am a dual state licensed attorney licensed by the states of Michigan as well as Georgia. And in addition to having a Juris Doctorate, I also have a Master's in Law and Tax. During my legal career of over 26 years, I basically focused in five main areas of the law. I focused in tax law, estate planning, probate, credit or rights and elder law. And what I'll emphasize is that as I have
transitioned into longer tenure within the areas of law, I've definitely noticed my passion. Because I have to make the comment, I don't have a profession, I have a passion. And my passion actually started back in high school and college, where I would volunteer in nursing homes and convalescent centers. And in those environments, I would see the difference between those haves and the have nots. What do I mean by that? Those that have friends and family actively engaged and those that are isolated alone. Those that have done pre-planning.
those that are doing reactive planning, if any type of planning, those that have advocates and those that unfortunately were silenced by mind or body. Definitely had a lasting hand print on my heart that was further emphasized probably about 11 years ago when my mother got diagnosed with vascular dementia. And while she's still with us, she is a mere glimmer of what she was as before this horrible, horrible condition took over. Presently she's bedridden, nonverbal for the last
probably about two years now, hasn't recognized me in well over three and a half. And I bring that up only because as I say, this is a passion. And it was very interesting because I've been on both sides of the table, shall we say, the attorney advocate and the family caregiver. And one of the things that made me know I was in the right place with my mom and her experience is when she got her diagnosis, she was feeling a kaleidoscope of emotions.
because essentially she was the caregiver for my grandmother who had vascular dementia until she passed. She was part of the caregiving team of my aunt who passed away among other ailments with vascular dementia. And now she just got diagnosed. And when I say it was a kaleidoscope of emotions, she knew not only what was in store for her by being the caregiver for the other family members, but she also knew what was in store for us as the family caregivers.
And it was very humbling to see where the true counselor and attorney counselor of law comes in. And that's what I saw with my moms. And that's what I bring to every one of my clients, because when your life is feeling out of control and that every independent thought or wish or aspiration or dream you ever had is suddenly crumbling before you due to a diagnosis of, for example, dementia, it's my job. It's my responsibility. It's my passion to preserve your voice.
Because through your voice, which is within your estate planning documents, that's where you're going to still have independent thought and instruction even when you are silenced by your mind or body. And that's me. That's who I am. That is my passion. That is why I do what I do. And that is why I'm humbled and honored to do what I do.
Katie Wilkinson (03:34)
Thank you so much for sharing all of that. Your story obviously aligns with what we're doing at Givers, helping family caregivers find resources, especially financial resources to take off that burden of caregiving, which you obviously know well. The goal today is to talk about healthcare proxies and advanced directives, but maybe we can start a little bit more broad. You've talked about people that plan proactively or reactively, maybe just in general when someone is thinking about planning for...
Katie Wilkinson (04:04)
caregiving, especially for an older adult, possibly someone with cognitive decline, where should they start? Is an advanced directive the best place to start or what are the first questions a family member might be asking themselves?
Shannon Pawley (04:17)
I think that the first question that needs to be answered is whether or not that family member that's being diagnosed with the ailment has their three essential foundational state planning documents. The financial power of attorney, that healthcare power of attorney with medical directive, the health proxy, and at a bare minimum, a basic will. Now, why
do I state those as the three essentials? And if you notice two of them, they're state planning. A lot of people here state planning, they always think of after death. But if you notice two of those are during life and only one is after death, but the three foundational essentials. And the reason I say where the person has cognition and the ability to get these done is because it's going to ensure their wishes are known. But more importantly, this is where they're going to name out their advocates. They're going to name out who is going to be assisting them with their financial matters.
And here's the thing I often talk about with a financial power of attorney. hear people go, attorney Polly, do I really need a financial power of attorney? I don't want to upset mom, dad, et cetera. Besides, I'm already joined on the bank account. Isn't that good enough? And my response is, well, number one, great job for being joined on the bank account. That is one proactive step you've done. However, the financial power of attorney does that and so much more. It gives the authority to handle financial affairs.
whether that be handling the insurance, maybe having to change the beneficiaries because a loved one died and the beneficiary was never changed. Maybe it is to get them out of that cable bill that's costing them $250 a month and they haven't watched cable in three years. Because you got to realize that creditors or vendors that your parents are working on, if it's your parents we're talking about here, they're not going to talk to you unless you have legal standing.
Even if, for example, you wanted to pay that mortgage payment, so you were calling the mortgage company to confirm exactly what the account number is and where to pay that mortgage. They're not going to talk to you unless you have legal standing. So that's why you got to make sure that financial power of attorney. But this financial power of attorney also gives the agent the authority to enter into contracts. And this is very valuable, but this is the gift that's coming from. The principal, the person that's been diagnosed with dementia, for example.
because this is where they're going to be able to protect their loved ones as they protect them. Because they were properly drafted financial power of attorney, giving the agent the authority to enter into contracts in an agency capacity, you're going to protect them from becoming individually liable for your debt. I can guarantee you that no parent or loved one wants their advocate to become financially liable as they're assisting them in their role as a fiduciary or agent. And that's just what it is. So instead of
trying to get your loved one into that rehab of choice and signing that admission paperwork in your individual name where one, two or three different locations, you just personally guaranteed the debt here by your loved one appointing you as their financial power of attorney agent. And by you signing as Shannon Polly, comma P O A, I'm not signing my individual capacity. I'm signing not in my individual capacity, but my fiduciary capacity. And that is where my loved one by
Asking me to assist is protecting me too. So that's the first essential. To me, that's a non-negotiable, especially if we're dealing with someone that we're trying to be proper caregivers, assuming that they have the capacity. And of course, the second is that healthcare power of attorney. A lot of people believe that because I am the daughter, the husband, the brother, the sister, the grandmother, that my familiar relationships gives me legal authority to get access to medical records and make healthier decisions for another that may be becoming capacitated. That's not true.
Unless they're under 18 in your child or you've gone through the process of becoming the guardian through the court system, you can't speak for them unless you have legal standing, for example, through a healthcare power of attorney slash proxy. And in this, it's going to give access to medical records. It's going to give the access to discuss medical treatment plans with doctors and to make healthcare decisions in the event that your loved one is incapacitated to make those decisions.
Now, once again, a lot of people say, I really need a healthcare power of attorney, attorney Polly, because I have a HIPAA release. My comment, good job, you have a HIPAA release. That is very important too, but a HIPAA release, that is only the past. That is medical records. In addition, is very often doctor or medical conglomerate specific, where the healthcare power of attorney gives you access to the history, but also the today.
and the planning for tomorrow in regards to the healthcare affairs. Now, within this, you heard me use the word medical directive. So I don't know if I'm speaking to a state specific audience today or if I'm speaking to a national audience and talking to you right now. don't know how you are planning to share this information, but I'm gonna use the example of Georgia. Georgia is not a right to die state. Georgia is not a death with dignity state. All that we have are
what are basically three recognized terminal conditions and essentially three terminal treatment plans to choose from. The three terminal conditions that we recognize in our healthcare powers attorney, number one, a terminal condition where death is imminent. This isn't Katie that you've been diagnosed with stage four breast cancer. It's that you have stage four breast cancer, your body's too weak to keep taking chemo or radiation, so they tell you that they're stopping all treatment and
Now you have a matter of days or weeks to live. Now death is imminent with that terminal diagnosis. So that's number one. Number two, I think many of us probably remember the most recent big case on this, that was the Terry Shrivo case, where we had a woman who was in her 30s. She had a cardiac incident and basically she became permanent vegetative state, not really responding to external stimuli. Basically that.
vegetable that everybody fears being in the state of. And after the doctors basically had told her spouse that she's she has a very, very, very slim chance of coming out of this, he wanted to pull the plug. And the parents said, absolutely not, because that is not what she would have wanted here. And it ended up going through the court system, 14 independent levels of appellate review before finally about 15 years after entering into this condition.
the husband finally had the legal authority to let her body rest and pull the plug. Georgia doesn't want another family to have to go what Shrivo went through, the Shrivo family. And so the second terminal condition is that a part of vegetative state not responding to external stimuli. Now the third one that we include in ours here at the state NASA protection law firm is that you're in the final stages of a progressive illness where death is imminent.
This is, I'm gonna use my mother as an example. I just talked a little bit about my mom. She is in the advanced stages of vascular dementia. Well, dementia doesn't kill people. Dementia is purely cognitive, but it's what are called the ripple effects. And that's why very often people in advanced dementia, because they can no longer swallow properly anymore. This is why they pass away due to asphyxiation, or they pass away because something gets lodged in their lungs and causes an infection.
or they pass away because they cannot take proper hydration or nutrition in. So that's our third. And so I always make the comment when people say, well, which one should I choose? I say, choose all three. This is all we've got. And then you state your primary treatment plan. What do you want? I do the first one. I call it bells and whistles. I don't care about whether it's going to cure me or a lot. My focus is quantity of life. So if it's going to keep me alive,
Hook me that machine, give me that pill, do that medical procedure, I don't care, keep me alive. So that's choice number one. Choice number two is the complete opposite of that. I call it the hospice option. This is where you say, it's not going to cure me, don't do it. Let me die naturally, free of pain. And then the third option we have here in Georgia, I call it a hybrid option or an a la carte. This is where you keep the same.
Basic as option B, if it's not gonna cure me, don't do it. Let me die naturally free of pain. But then you put in some a la carte. You may say, if I cannot take food or hydration orally, give it to me by other means. If my heart stops, give me CPR. If I cannot breathe on my own, put me on a respirator or a ventilator. And one of the things I will say is this section of the estate planning documents I draft, I could draft a highly complex trust
a will, a financial power of attorney, and then the healthcare power of attorney. And it's this section right here that will always take up about one to two thirds of my signing appointments. Because this is the part that is most uncomfortable for people, but is most important because this is the kindest gift you can give your loved ones. Because now, instead of the doctor coming to your child and saying, OK, mom's been in a coma now for the last six months,
her chance of coming out of this is less than 0.5%. And we need to know what are we gonna do next? Are we gonna continue course to keep her alive in this manner? We can do something experimental. Are we gonna let the body rest? What are we gonna do? And my thing is, if you don't have these instructions, you're gonna open up your loved ones to a lifetime of second guessing and regretting and pondering if they did the right choice. Where yes, if you've made this pre-declared choice,
It's not easier to say, but they're honoring you. And you, just like in the financial power of attorney, where you're trying to alleviate them from being hit financially for assisting you, this is where you're taking a little bit of burden off of their shoulders, so they're not gonna have guilt and second guessing. I think I answered your question, and if I did not, please feel free to rephrase.
Katie Wilkinson (14:32)
This is all excellent, think very thorough, and I have a lot of follow-up questions. I think the first would be, how does someone become a financial and or medical power of attorney?
Shannon Pawley (14:44)
So these are standardized documents. Now here in the state of Georgia and many states, they have standardized statutory language. At a bare minimum, that's what you want, because that's been approved, for example, here in the state of Georgia by our Supreme Court. Now I do think that that will probably cover people in like 80 % of the situations. But when we're dealing with someone that is a caregiver situation, we have somebody who's been diagnosed, I think that you need more.
secure you than just 80%. So maybe you do want to talk to an attorney to the next step. But what I emphasize is you don't have to have an attorney to be protected under these and drafted. These are his statutory language. And that is better than nothing. As much as I may say I don't like legal zoom because it assumes everybody is vanilla where I'm sorry, Katie, I'm rocky road. I hear you're rainbow sherbert, you know, but at least it's better than nothing.
and at least gives the basics. Because like I said, if you don't even have the basics or a foundational, you have nothing and you have nothing to rest upon to try to help out your person. So that's the first thing I emphasize. Sit down now, here's the thing. I work closely with the DeKalb County Library System here in Georgia. Their library has some drafting software there actually that it'll help you.
Draft a will, foundational powers of attorney, a very, very, I use the term, I'm gonna say loosey goosey, I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole drafting of a trust, but at least it's something, but at least it's a start. You're saying where to start. Start with either the statutory language or start, just go to your library, find out if they have some of these foundational drafting software, because something is better than nothing. As much as I say, I don't like LegalZoom, I like LegalZoom a million times better than nothing.
Katie Wilkinson (16:39)
Yeah, I think that's super helpful. Most of our audience is families on Medicaid. And I think that there can be a bit of apprehension around like, do I have to get a lawyer? How much is that going to cost? What are my free resources? So I think what you've just shared is really helpful. I do want to pause in case there's anything else you want to share, knowing that information about our audience. But maybe that's sort of the end of free or low cost resources that you might want to share.
Shannon Pawley (17:06)
Well, one of the things I will state, and this is me speaking as an elder law attorney. And for me, elder law, what am I always focusing on? I'm out focusing on governmental programs to assist with long-term care. My firm is not a multi-generational wealth transfer. As much as I would love to have the Carnegie's and the Rockefellers, they're not who I'm marketing to. I'm marketing to the people that are middle-class that need to preserve their nest egg for whatever tomorrow may bring or whatever situation they may be in now.
If a lot of our audience right now is on Medicaid, know, definitely sit down and make sure if they are, if your loved one is at a facility, ask the facility for the Georgia health care directive, which is the statutory language. That's at least the statutory language. If not, go to your, I'm gonna sound weird saying this, go to your local hospital, go to their admin, ask if you can get their basic health care power of attorney. And also remember this with
being on Medicaid is they need you as the caregiver advocate. They need someone that's gonna do those annual renewals, do those change reports. And at times seek out the council of firms, let's just like mine, where it starts to get a little bit more complex because oops, they just inherited a house and now they're over resources. Realize that yes, not all resources
are, I'll put in quotes, free. But sometimes the investment for the knowledge to be able to make an informed choice is also the best thing that you can do that can be the most economical also.
Katie Wilkinson (18:49)
Yeah, that's super helpful. You mentioned before medical directives. We're also talking about advanced directives. Can you first clarify if there is a difference between these two terms and then talk a little bit more about what is in a medical directive and or an advanced directive?
Shannon Pawley (19:08)
So a lot of times they're used interchangeably in regards to focusing on terminal treatment situations. Well, what I emphasize is even with the statutory language that we have here in Georgia, there is a section, it's actually section eight on the Georgia Health Care Directive, which is where you can put in additional statements. And this is where I just helped a client earlier this week and they were very adamant, regardless of if they're in a terminal condition or not,
They never want any type of a medical device to be put down their throat for assistance in breathing, hydration, or food. So this is where we're giving not only the directive in regards to the terminal under the medical directive or advance that people normally think, but normally within these, you can also say how you want on the day to day. You can say, for example, and this is breaking, the more specific you can be, the more helpful you are to your advocates.
If you, for example, want to emphasize that I don't want to go to hospital for any reason, I want to die at home. And if I'm in a terminal condition, don't take me back to the doctor for more tests and et cetera. Just make me comfortable at home. Put that into your directive. If you are the type of individual that is, for example, a Jehovah's Witness and you can't take blood transfusions.
still put that into your healthcare power of attorney, that advanced directive, that medical directive, that yes, a portion of it is mainly focusing on end of life, but also the duration of life should also be addressed in there if it is key things of importance to you.
Katie Wilkinson (20:55)
And in the case that your medical directive is not very specific, maybe it just has the end of life instructions or sort of vague instructions about how you want to be cared for, how much authority or what other kinds of decisions can your healthcare proxy be making for you? The question might be a little bit vague. just curious about how far the sort of authority of a proxy goes.
Shannon Pawley (21:14)
One of the first things to remember about a healthcare proxy, a healthcare power of attorney, or any other type of power of attorney, trustee, executor, et cetera, but they have a duty of loyalty. So what does that duty of loyalty mean? That means that, for example, Katie, congratulations, you've hired me, or you've retained me, or I'm your best friend, and now I am your healthcare agent. And you've gotten into a horrible, horrible accident.
and you've had a lot of blood loss, okay? But you're a Jehovah's Witness. You can't take a blood transfusion. And you are going into the ER and they look to me as your agent and go, okay, she's lost three pints of blood. We need to stabilize her. We need to do a transfusion. Well, to me, because I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, the best thing I could do for you is say yes, but I can't. I have a duty of loyalty.
I have to do what you have told me you would want to happen in this situation. And Katie, you told me you're Jehovah's Witness. By your faith, that cannot happen. So as hard as it's gonna be to me to say no, because I don't wanna lose my best friend Katie, I'm going to have to say no. However, in a different situation that we haven't addressed, that you haven't told me not to do, but yet I know you've stated that it's important for you to...
Always stay at home for your care. Okay, fine. That just means I'm gonna find doctors that make house calls. I'm gonna find an oncologist, a visiting oncologist to come to you. So I'm still honoring you and I'm still doing my duty of loyalty and keeping you in the home. But I'm playing within the parameters that you have given me so I can advocate for you. This is why I keep making the comment, the more specific you can be, the better. A lot of times,
People may also have what's called a personal care plan. And a personal care plan will sometimes be cross referenced within your healthcare power of attorney or proxies. And in that, that's just where you're seeing how to best care for you, what your wishes are for the day to day, what are your thumbs up and what are your thumbs down. And once again, it's just that more information so the person can more properly advocate and assist you.
Katie Wilkinson (23:38)
I that's helpful. You've obviously mentioned the more information, the better. On the flip side, are there any mistakes you can make when setting up your medical directive or when you're choosing your health care proxy?
Shannon Pawley (23:51)
Yeah, let's talk about choosing of your agent or your proxy. I hear this one a lot. I'm going to say that this is my nails on a chalkboard. And this is where I'll have a person come in. Congratulations, Katie. You're coming to me as a client. And you have two children you love so much. You have CEO Cindy. Congratulations. She was number one in her class at Harvard. And right now, she's
a CEO at a Fortune 100 company. You couldn't be prouder of her, you know? And so as we're talking about who needs to be the financial property and healthcare, oh yeah, it makes sense. CEO Cindy would make complete sense. But then you go, but I also have my son. And my son is Artistic Arthur. Artistic Arthur, he's a free spirit. He's kind of been the prodigal son left and come back and left and come back.
You know, he's all into Eastern medicine, astrology, everything that is just not necessarily your cup of tea. And so when I say, OK, who are we going to do as your health care power of attorney? Well, I have to be fair. So if I'm making CEO Cindy, my health care or my financial power of attorney, well, I got it. So I got to make, you know, artsy Arthur, my health care power of attorney. Absolutely not.
Absolutely, positively not. When it comes to estate planning documents and powers of attorney and proxies and advocates, you're not doing what's fair. You're doing who can best serve in that role. And realize, sometimes it may be that you're have to go outside of your immediate friend and family network and you might have to find a professional fiduciary. I have a specific healthcare advocate.
that for a lot of my solo seniors, meaning a solo senior is someone that all of their family has predeceased them, all their friends have predeceased to them, they're solo and they don't have anybody to name on these documents. Well then I introduce them, for example, a person I use here in the Measuring Atlanta area is Mandy Markle and she will serve as their healthcare advocate. And granted she does it for a fee, but she is experienced in medical jargon.
She gets very intimately involved in getting to know you. sometimes, like I said, the advocate may not be a friend or family member, it may be a professional. And the last thing I want to emphasize, when you are talking about your advocates, your agents, have a continuing communication with them. Don't just ask them once and never call them back to say how things are going, or God forbid, make sure you tell them. And make sure you tell them where the powers of attorney are at so they can get copies. And then lastly,
When you're doing and naming your agents, I'm a lover of baseball. Baseball, you have to have three strikes before you're out. So you need to name a primary, a backup, and a backup to the backup when you're sitting down and you're naming your agents. Always have safety nets, and your safety nets are the backup agent. If the primary can't serve, and if the primary backup can't serve, that's where you got the backup to the backup.
Katie Wilkinson (27:08)
That's super helpful. I'm hoping you can talk a little bit about where a spouse might fit into this with lots of spouse, like a husband or wife. Can, what marital rights are baked in legally? Do they still need to become a POA? Like any, anything people need to know about this.
Shannon Pawley (27:15)
Wear a what? I'm sorry. spouse. Are you saying spouse or house? Okay, thank you. Yes.
And yes, just because you're the spouse does not immediately give you legal standing. If you want your spouse to be your advocate for you, you need to make sure you do the proper paperwork so they can be the advocate. If you don't want your spouse to be the advocate, then you've got to make sure that you're naming out who you do. Because here's the thing. Yes, if we get to a point that there's no power of attorney and somebody's got to make decisions, now it's going statutory. And statutory is very cold.
They are really only looking at the relationship. And God forbid, know, Katie, you are like one of my best clients here. You came to me, you were in tears. Your husband's abusive. And you do not want your husband to have any control over you or your children's lives anymore. And we're sitting down and we are talking and I'm saying, well, we need to sit down and do powers of attorney because if we don't do powers of attorney.
that and the courts need to get involved to make a determination of who can act on your behalf when we start looking at statutes. They're go by degrees of relationship. And guess what? If you haven't specifically excluded your spouse, Katie, that's abusive to you, then that's gonna be one of your closest relationships in the eyes of the law. So be observant of that.
Katie Wilkinson (28:54)
That's helpful. I just had a question that escaped my brain. I think you've already answered this question, but can family members override a medical directive or a healthcare proxy's decisions? Like someone who's not named on a document, your artistic Arthur who's not named, is he able to override a decision?
Shannon Pawley (29:13)
by his own individual choice or proclamation? No. But what can artistic Arthur do? Artistic Arthur can petition the courts for guardianship or conservatorship over you, Katie. And then at that point, if the courts enter an order appointing artistic Arthur as your guardian, that trumps your documents that you had drafted voluntarily. Courts always trump. That is how
another family member could trump what you have within your power of attorneys. But that's also why within a properly drafted power of attorney, it will state if the course needs to get involved to appoint a guardian, I want it to be my agent. You're going to say that in there because the courts when they're going to appoint, they're going to take that under strong consideration who you already stated when you were in a cognizant mind who you wanted to advocate for you. So if you put in there that you wanted it to be CEO Cindy.
but as artistic Arthur that filed the petition, CEO Cindy should of course challenge it. And she's gonna wave the power of attorney showing that you actually said you wanted to be CEO Cindy. And then the judge will make the determination of who they will appoint. But they do put strong preference to who you elect first. And then it's the degrees of relationship.
Katie Wilkinson (30:36)
I think we're gonna have to have you back to talk about conservatorships and guardianships. And I think this last question might sort of be bridging that a little bit. But for someone like your mom, who I imagine has an advanced directive, et cetera, because you're her daughter, but if she didn't and she's already in this sort of advanced state of cognitive decline, how does this all work? Can she still have a medical directive? Can she still choose a proxy? Like what happens if you haven't done this in advance?
Shannon Pawley (30:40)
If you have loved ones that the capacity window is closing, but it's not all the way closed. My mom's is already closed. I'll talk about that in a second. But if we're dealing with a person that's in a moderate state of dementia, so they're lucid first thing in the morning, but as the day goes on and they get more more tired throughout the day, they suddenly aren't recognizing and the dementia is significantly showing.
Well, this is when if you're dealing with that situation, you need to have an attorney helping you at this point, because you need an attorney to be able to work with you to figure out the time of the day where your loved one is most lucid. For them the attorney to go out, make sure that they have the appropriate level of capacity to sign the documents for them to sign it under the attorney supervision and the attorney will usually have
their staff members, they're gonna be the witnesses, they're gonna put in detailed notes. So that if at a later time, somebody comes in and challenges, it's not a family member that was the one that led this, it was an independent attorney that specializes in elder law that understands capacity, that on their own license stated your loved one had capacity at that moment in time. Because capacity, think of it as a Polaroid picture. We're taking a Polaroid picture the moment you're putting pen to paper.
And if you know exactly what you're doing and you have full capacity, but then five minutes later, you don't remember ever even seeing me after I walked out the door. That doesn't matter. It's that Polaroid picture at the moment. Pen hits paper and the signature hits. Now, if we're dealing with a situation like where my mom is, where my mom is nonverbal, my mom is somewhat catatonic, honestly. Well, the only way if we did not have the appropriate documentation drafted for her appointing.
The only way we could go at that point if the hospitals were refusing to work with my father, for example, is through the court system to get guardianship. And that's a very painful situation because it's emotionally expensive and financially expensive. But the emotional expense is because you're asking the court to declare this person you love, perhaps your parent that raised you and taught you everything, ask them to declare the person legally incompetent.
taking away all of their constitutional rights, the right to marry, the right to contract, the right to decide how medical treatment should be done on their own body. It's very emotional. So once again, this is why, what is that saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Everybody just pay the piper to get that ounce, definitely.
Katie Wilkinson (33:47)
Yeah, thank you so much. I know I just joked, but we would love to have you back on to talk more about that process. I guess before we wrap, is there anything that we've missed? I know this is all sort of high level on medical directives and healthcare proxies, but is there anything we've missed that you feel like in this 30 minute conversation people need to hear?
Shannon Pawley (33:53)
There's one thing that's not necessarily on the specific topics, but mainly because the audience you said that we're speaking to here and many of them are on Medicaid. And this is all that I want to state. And this might be, if you want to invite me back, we talk a little bit more about this one too, my friend. But that is realize that when it comes to Medicaid and asset protection, there's a difference between assets you can have and be eligible for Medicaid.
And then there's the difference between what's going to be protected for Medicaid estate recovery after you're passing. So for example, here in Georgia, you can have a house with, think up to like a $750,000 equity in it and you'd have a car. Well, at first glance you may go, well, this is great because that's my biggest asset. Ha ha, thank you, Uncle Sam. Okay, give me my Medicaid, I'm happy. Well, here's the thing though. When you die under Medicaid estate recovery,
They're going to circle around, go around the back door, put a lien on that property that you already disclosed in your application, and try to receive back up to the full amount they paid over your lifetime. So this is where, if you're trying to just get eligibility, just be aware. If they have the house, they get to keep the house during their lifetime. There's some additional exceptions for spouses or disabled children after your passing. But the PIPER is going to have to be paid at some point, where
Once again, this is that whole ounce of prevention. There could be some strategy you could do either at the onset or even if they're already in an eligible status, there might be a strategy that may lead to a couple of penalty months, but at the end of the day, it's gonna preserve that asset. So I just mentioned that one. And once again, a properly drafted power of attorney over finances will allow the child as the advocate to be the one that works with the attorney so that mom or dad in the facility can continue to focus on their recovery.
and their own social interactions without the stresses that can happen when it comes to asset preservation. So like I said, wasn't necessarily what we talking about. It was enough that I wanted to put the teaser or the flag out there just to wave to people.
Katie Wilkinson (36:19)
Yeah, that's excellent. That's hands down one of the top questions that we get is about estate recovery. So again, we would love to have you back to talk more about that. Thank you so much for your time and talking about this. And we can follow up offline about other conversations and we'll be sure to link in this episode, your website and additional resources for people to find you and more on this topic.
Shannon Pawley (36:27)
I appreciate that. The other thing I just emphasize to the audience is much like, know, Katie with, you know, her professional endeavors is being on the education sharing. Do you realize that I do seminars every Thursday at one o'clock. You can register them on my website, which Katie's going to provide each week or different topics, but we go over topics such as this and others to make sure that you are as educated as you can be or you want to be before you make decisions.
Katie Wilkinson (37:11)
Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you for including that. All right.
Shannon Pawley (37:13)
Thank you.
